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16 July 2011 @ 10:22 am
Question  
So where exactly does the manga say that Grumman and Riza are related? I've wondered this for a long time but I can't seem to find anything solid anywhere. Is this fact or just fannon?
 
 
prufrock, before he got famous: rizalikeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 02:52 pm (UTC)
I have wondered this too! (I have personally chosen to ignore it in writing fic because I don't see how to incoporate it in Riza's backstory and have it make any sense at all.)
Jellyjellyjay on July 16th, 2011 02:57 pm (UTC)
It's in one the Character Guidebooks: according to FMA wiki, it's the Perfect Guidebook 2.

Here we go:

The kinship between Grumman and Lt. Hawkeye (Riza) is not declared at any point during the course of the manga, but it is stated in the Perfect Guidebook 2. The book reveals that he's her grandfather on her mother's side (and therefore, they don't bear the same surname). It's unclear whether Riza is aware of this kinship, since she states she doesn't know about any relatives (to Mustang, in Chapter 60 of the manga), but it's implied that he's aware; he tells Mustang that "what would really make me happy would be if you took my granddaughter as your First Lady." Whether Mustang is aware that this granddaughter is his own right-hand subordinate is also unclear and the subject of considerable speculation.

http://fma.wikia.com/wiki/Grumman
prufrock, before he got famous: rizalikeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 03:44 pm (UTC)
I know it's in the guidebook but I have to take this as the remnant of a plotline that was never used? At the funeral she says that she didn't know her mother's family, so it's set up as though there is going to be some kind of reunion (I expected her to be related to the Elrics, honestly). But it never happens and . . . well, it's hard to reconcile Grumman KNOWING with the implication that she's an impoverished orphan who has to make do entirely on her own resources. I suppose it's possible "oh she found out sometime between her father's death and the main plot of the book" but then it never comes up?
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 10:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 10:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - catw00man on July 16th, 2011 10:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 10:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - zippitgood on July 16th, 2011 10:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - animanga_maniac on July 16th, 2011 10:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:08 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 17th, 2011 12:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 12:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 17th, 2011 12:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - meredavey on July 16th, 2011 11:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - meredavey on July 16th, 2011 11:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - meredavey on July 16th, 2011 11:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 16th, 2011 11:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Orly? - nochick_fics on July 17th, 2011 12:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
Roy/Ed - evil_little_dog on July 17th, 2011 12:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eanelinea77 on July 17th, 2011 12:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 17th, 2011 12:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eanelinea77 on July 17th, 2011 12:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 17th, 2011 12:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - evil_little_dog on July 17th, 2011 12:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mir280 on July 18th, 2011 10:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Zippit: fma - hawkeye - for king & countryzippitgood on July 16th, 2011 10:15 pm (UTC)
When I see this in author notes or in the fic, it really really annoys me. People treat this as canon when it's explicitly not. It's not in the manga or stated in the anime. Sure, they supposedly hint at it (I'm watching the dubs so I haven't seen the end of the anime yet) at the end of Brotherhood but it's still not stated. It's NOT canon and I wish people would stop treating it as such.
prufrock, before he got famouslikeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 10:19 pm (UTC)
I would endorse treating it as canon if it's either done as "Grumman has no idea and then is overjoyed to find his long lost granddaughter" or "Grumman is a manipulative asshole and Roy punches him in the face" but I don't really see room for EITHER of those interpretations. . .
(no subject) - zippitgood on July 16th, 2011 10:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 10:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - zippitgood on July 16th, 2011 10:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Catw00mancatw00man on July 16th, 2011 10:27 pm (UTC)
I'm so glad you brought this up because it's honestly something that annoys me to no end. You're correct. It is NOT in the manga and for me that's really the only source that matters. I don't care for the fact it's taken as canon by some no matter what because you're right, it really doesn't make any sense at all. To be honest this really reminds of a huge controversy that was seen in the Buffy/Angel verse.

Back then there was a whole thing about who sired Spike, Angel or Drusilla. Well there are 2 episodes where in CANON Spike refers to Angel as his "sire," taken to be the one who made him. But then later in the series Joss decided to make a change and had Drusilla sire him. This was a blatant rewrite which as you can imagine upset many who'd been writing Spike/Angel for years. This almost seems the same to me, an added after thought that doesn't fit. The only difference here is it's NOT in the canon, unlike the whole Spike thing.

I don't know. I just figured I'd throw my 2 cents out there. I don't care for random tag on additions like this and I honestly have to question whether or not this statement is really made by Arakawa or some post manga publishing company idea. I'd think if she wanted it in the story she would have put it there, but obviously I could be wrong. She could have just "Jossed" us. It wouldn't be the first time it's happened.

As for me I won't be writing it unless a source more official than a random artbook comes out to make it fact. But that's my choice as I feel the manga was complete enough as it was.
prufrock, before he got famouslikeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 10:35 pm (UTC)
I see the parallel though I think the difference is that the Spike backstory was rewritten for the sake of telling a different and for some people better story. That didn't happen with Riza & Grumman. . . that story was never told. For all I know, it could be AWESOME but I have to go with what I can make work!
(no subject) - catw00man on July 16th, 2011 10:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Mere: royed closemeredavey on July 16th, 2011 10:44 pm (UTC)
accidentally posted a reply when it wasn't a reply. & it also applies to most of these posts...

I can see both points.

But it's not fannon as far as I'm concerned. I tend to agree with those that point out that the guidebook is pretty accurate.

With respect to opinions, most authors have a lot of ideas that don't get into a story, but as jellyjay points out, Grumman does reference the relationship in the manga, obscurely, but he does do it. (and for royai fans this is confirming royai might be cannon...I don't follow royai so I don't know a whole lot about it...)

These art books/profile/guide books ARE mostly official. If they're [art books/profile/guide books] from Arakawa (as she wrote the manga & it is her ideas...), well, I'd trust them.

So...going back to Jellyjay's point, I'm more likely to believe it didn't add anything directly related to the story so she didn't really put it in.Maybe it was because it was an interesting part of a back story, it ended up in the guide instead?

You talk about how it doesn't fit? People are still arguing over the timeline, the timeline doesn't always fit correctly either, if I'm remembering correctly.

Sorry for the long post - thought that some interesting points were brought up though.

There are positives and negatives to both sides, but, I for one, won't be upset if an author's included it. Some fannon is better than cannon. (at least I think so...)

Edited at 2011-07-16 10:44 pm (UTC)
prufrock, before he got famouslikeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 10:46 pm (UTC)
He says he has a granddaughter. That doesn't seem to be referencing Riza to me. If anything, it seems evidence she's NOT his granddaughter because if he knows she is, why does he never have any interaction w/ her? I just assume it's an offscreen character.

How can you fit Grumman being her grandfather w/ her being an indigent orphan elsewhere in the series?
(no subject) - meredavey on July 16th, 2011 10:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 10:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - meredavey on July 16th, 2011 11:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - meredavey on July 16th, 2011 11:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nochick_fics on July 16th, 2011 11:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - meredavey on July 16th, 2011 11:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nochick_fics on July 16th, 2011 11:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 16th, 2011 11:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - meredavey on July 16th, 2011 11:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - meredavey on July 16th, 2011 11:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fractured_chaos on July 17th, 2011 03:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 03:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
kashicat: Flamekashicat on July 17th, 2011 12:04 am (UTC)
Seems to me if the source of the entire story says it's so -- then it's so. We saw part of the story, but not the whole thing. She knows the whole thing. So I'm going to take her word for it, even if the mere part of the story I saw didn't happen to show it.
prufrock, before he got famouslikeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 12:07 am (UTC)
. . .but if I think it weakens the story what's the benefit to accepting it?
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 12:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 12:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 01:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 01:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 01:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 01:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 01:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 01:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 01:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 01:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 01:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 01:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 02:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 02:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 02:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 02:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 02:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 02:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jellyjay on July 17th, 2011 02:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 02:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
Must love scavenging for carrion: ADVICE ALCHEMISTcrowfics on July 17th, 2011 02:26 am (UTC)
late to the party but
Interpret this however:

Relatively common knowledge that Arakawa named a lot of the military characters after fighter planes, right? Anyway Grumman was/is a major American aircraft engineering corporation, and one of their planes is the E-2 Hawkeye.

I...I have nothing else worthwhile to add. CARRY ON.
Staunch Heliocentrist: FMAannepackrat on July 17th, 2011 04:49 pm (UTC)
Call me crazy, but how do we know that Gruuman and Riza don't interact. We know little about her day to day life. She could eat dinner with him every Sunday for all we know. As for how he treats he on the job, I could very well see her asking him to keep any relations quiet because she doesn't want it to impact Roy negatively (making it seem like he got ahead only because of her connection to Gruuman).

Like someone else mentioned too, his asking Roy to marry his granddaughter could be due to a number of reasons:

1. This is the only way he can make sure she is protected.

2. He might know that they have feelings for each other and tries to spur their relationship along.

3. Maybe he just really wants great grandchildren.

prufrock, before he got famouslikeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 04:51 pm (UTC)
Well. . .we can't disprove ANYTHING that happens off the page, but my question was more 'what's the point of establishing they have a relationship and never portraying it on the page'?
(no subject) - annepackrat on July 17th, 2011 04:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 04:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - annepackrat on July 17th, 2011 05:08 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - likeadeuce on July 17th, 2011 05:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bay115 on July 18th, 2011 07:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
mir280: Eyesmir280 on July 18th, 2011 11:52 pm (UTC)
Wow! I never ever expected so many responses. I haven't read every single comment but some very interesting points have been brought up. It seems like the the Arakawa knows that Grumman and Riza are related but that she didn't put it in the manga exactly. Whether that makes it canon or not is up to each individual and how much stock they put into sources other than the manga.

Personally I love situations like this because it makes me wonder about the how and why of the situation. Fanfic is such a perfect answer for this too. In fanfic we can explore the thousands of different ways that this could work or the thousands of different reasons there's no way they are related. LOL

What if Grumman is an ass? What if he's not? What if he wants contact with Riza but can't have it for whatever reason? What if he knows they're related? What if he doesn't and he was referring to a different Grandchild when he spoke to Roy? What if Riza knows they are related? Why wouldn't she say anything? What if she chose to sever contact with that part of her family? Why would she do that? What if she doesn't know they are related? What if they aren't related but the rumor mill thinks they are?

So many ways the story could go! I love it:) For myself, since Arakawa said they were related in a guidebook I tend to believe that. It doesn't bother me for them to be related, it just raises so many questions about how/why they wouldn't realize it or interact with each other while still being the characters they are in the manga. Hmmmm. This should be a challege. Explain or disprove the Grumman/Riza relationship in a fanfic.