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16 March 2006 @ 11:59 am
I'm kinda scaring myself...  
Ok, basically I'm making this entry to show what I've gathered so far in my Riza (Chap 57 spoiler) theories. After seeing the close-up of her tattoo and someone posting about the alchemic connections, I decided to look into it some more. (Please don't attack me until you've read it all. This is just collected information that I had found and am currently forming into a theory. Nothing is final.)



First, the tattoo.
http://community.livejournal.com/fm_alchemist/4189340.html#cutid1

One must consider three things:
1.) Riza willing had the Tattoo put on her back.
2.) Riza was forced to get the Tattoo on her back.
3.) Riza was born with the marking on her back.

Other things you need to consider:
1.) Did Riza know Roy when she had the Tattoo made?
2.) Does Roy know about the Tattoo?
3.) Which came first? Roy's alchemy symbol or Riza's Tattoo?
4.) Is the tattoo an Array or just a message?

There are some people who jump to the conclusion that Roy's symbol is to protect her from fire. This can't be true, because the symbol does not work this way, nor does she have the alchemic abilities to make it work any other way (that we know of.)

First off we have this site with the twelve keys to the philo. stone.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/twelvkey.html

The one that caught the attention of me and my friend was the second key, which mentions the 'king' and the 'bride' having sex and a process involving bathing in which the 'king' can have fortune, health, life, and strength restored.

It's a little iffy, but there were some connections.

The thing that scared me more was an entry that sounded almost dead-on. (I really hope Arakawa doesn't go in this direction but symbol-wise, it works.) It's called:
THE HERMAPHRODITE CHILD OF THE SUN AND MOON
(Yes it's a weird thought, just read it.)

Here's so pictures (look at the fifth one)
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/emb_hermaphrodite.html

And here's the articles.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/hermaph.html

Abstract: Analyzes the natural and supernatural birth, destruction,
and regeneration of the symbolic Child. Introduces the theory and
practice of how to quest for and manufacture the Philosopher's Stone.
Includes applications and explanations of verses by the famous
Swedish [sic] Adept Norton, from an ancient manuscript. Now, for the
first time, revealed according to mystical tradition and esoteric
enlightenment. Includes the qabbalistic signs of Solomon, explained
by a master-student of nature. With 12 emblematical figures with
corresponding explanatory paragraphs.


This idea of alchemy explains what must be done for the true philospher's stone.

It's the seventh section that caught my attention somewhat:
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/herm07.html

CANON 7

Do not pollute me,
Just dissolve me, coagulate me,
And turn me upside down.
That how to do good Work.

EXPLANATION OF CANON 7

In these 4 verses Northon tosses all the the other Alchemists a rock to stub
their toes on. (1) Guard It from pollution by any external substances that are
not homogenous and harmonious. (2) Pour your water on the fire without putting
the fire out so the water escapes as steam.
(3) Following the ancient wisdom, give Fire to the fire and Mercury to the mercury.
(4) As they melt into each other, their tight embrace dissolves them and finally
coagulates them. (5) Then a doubled Mercury dissolves
and coagulates itself through a strengthened or doubled Fire.

As Mercury completes the circle by returning to fiery Earth, like a flower turned
stem-up, you become master of the art of the Stone and complete the Work.


This part of the article deals with fire being needed to search and make the stone. That you must douse, or weaken, the fire with water but only enough to make steam, not to put the fire out. By melting fire and mercury together, you make a stronger fire.

And here's the 8th part, which involves a lot of the basics of alchemy.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/herm08.html

So far,(see link for pic) the figures portrayed the life cycle of the One
Substance: Its origin, birthplace, purification, separation,
hermetic sealing, pollution, congealing, sublimation, and
union in strict succession. These processes led to the
consummation of the alchemical wedding between the red
groom and the white bride.


This explains the cycle of the stone, or what must occur for it to be made.

Figure 8, next in this mystical life cycle, contains a
miniature copy of itself inside it. There is a cross on top
of an outer circle, containing an inner solar system.


If you look carefully around the edges of Roy's symbol, you'll see the sections of a cross.

The placement of the 4 elements is significant. Fire is on
top by the cross because the Fire for the process must be
sought from Above.

Earth is directly under Fire, because the fire calcinates the
Earth and makes is fire-proof. Fire, Air, and Water then
transform similarly, and the Stone is produced.


This is more of the stone's process.

The Sun, a golden pebble, floating between Fire and Air,
represents solid Red Sulphur which consists of Fire and Air and
which is the masculine aspect of the Moon.
The liquid Mercury, floating between Fire and Water,
consists of Fire and Water and is the feminine aspect of the Moon.

The Mercurial Moon hanging from the underside of the
transforming Earth represents all this joining, circulating,
and one-time concentrating into solid Earth.


A friend pointed out to me that this part mentions the moon a lot. It does seem a little off since her tattoo only has a sun. (From what we see at least.)

Not to mention the 12th:
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/herm12.html

This part of the article mentions the salamander and the flying dragons falling to earth.

EXPLANATION OF FIGURE 12(see link)

The snake eating its own tail represents the solid White and Red Stones. These first harden and solidify the virgin Milk, and then transform into a Salamander who lives in the Fire. The Fire furnishes the Salamander with the energy for its continued evolution.


The above continues along with Roy's symbol of the Salamander, which is the spirit of fire. (Earth=Drawf, Wind=Slyph, Water=Nymph)

The flying dragon, now fallen to Earth, breathes fire, which devours all metals, transmuting them into Silver or Gold.

The flying dragon falling to earth, also apart of the tattoo.

The cross designates the Attraction Field of the Astral Fire whose vibrations color the Salamander Venusian yellow, Martian Citrine-Red, and blood-red. This is the Fire of eternal Youth through multiplication, experienced by many.

The cross again.

There's more of the article that states that, at least what I have read that a 'Groom' and a 'Bride' must have come together (have sex) in order to have a pure, untouched, untainted child which is the P. Stone. Large amounts of fire are needed in order for the stone to be created.

I know it sounds weird. I don't know if this means that the stone must be created inside the 'Bride's' body.




I'm still working of this theory, so I don't know where I'm going or how near/far I am. I just wanted to post this so you guys can all basically see how much free time I apparently have.

I sure hope Arakawa isn't leaning in this direction. That would freak me out so badly.
 
 
Current Mood: crazycrazy
 
 
Jiah Pet: Just Add Water!: Dah fuh?!jiah on March 16th, 2006 06:53 pm (UTC)
Woo, that's a good heaping of work you did there! I hope it doesn't go that way, either. The thought of BradleyRiza (Rape? D:) makes my brain die in a horrible, depressing manner D:
nintendocat: Nintendocatnintendocat on March 16th, 2006 06:55 pm (UTC)
Actually, I'd lean more towards Father than Bradley. I don't thing the Homs. know she has the tattoo.
(no subject) - ninja_demongirl on March 16th, 2006 07:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sannask on March 16th, 2006 10:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - redushab on March 17th, 2006 12:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
Is This Thing On?: royai 3crack_alchemist on March 16th, 2006 07:49 pm (UTC)
wow! that is a lot!

if we take all of that into consideration, and since we are aware that roy is, apparently, fire (read: sacrifice) in the equation, i guess it begs the questions what is riza in it -- air, water, earth?
Is This Thing On?crack_alchemist on March 16th, 2006 07:51 pm (UTC)
it also makes me wonder if anyone else in Roy's company has a similar mark anywhere....
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 08:01 pm (UTC) (Expand)
shake up!!! shake up!!!badninja on March 16th, 2006 07:52 pm (UTC)
I think you're right, it's very likely that this storyline will involve this alchemist theory somehow - either literaly or figuratively. I had an alchemy book once, that illustrated this theory with a lot of pictures - I think that the bride might have given out an egg that was the philosopher's stone, but I'm not quite sure. That might have been one of the OTHER theories with hermaphrodites and o_O;

Um. Alchemy is weird, even if interesting. Especially when illustrated with pictures. :D

I'm wondering if it's possible her tattoo had the moon once before parts were covered with scar tissue, but looking at it, I don't really see a possible placement. But do we know what those symbols in the middle mean?
nintendocat: Busynintendocat on March 16th, 2006 08:05 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I don't think Riza herself is a Herm. I think it's symbolicly close though. (She might even have a twin brother with the same symbol.

As said before, Roy's symbol includes the triangles that represents most (if not all) the elements. It also has the salamander which is fire's spirit. There's a cross behind the symbol. There's the two dragons falling to earth. The words are either muslim or some other alchemic language.

Needs more polishing, that's for sure.
(no subject) - badninja on March 16th, 2006 08:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 08:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - badninja on March 16th, 2006 08:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 09:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - badninja on March 16th, 2006 09:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 10:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - historyblitz on March 17th, 2006 01:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - redushab on March 17th, 2006 01:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - theydontloveyou on March 16th, 2006 08:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 08:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - theydontloveyou on March 16th, 2006 08:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sannask on March 16th, 2006 10:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 10:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sannask on March 16th, 2006 10:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 10:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
theydontloveyou on March 16th, 2006 08:15 pm (UTC)
i'm still under the impression that riza has no clue that it's there. i know i wouldn't. :)
nintendocat: Trainnintendocat on March 16th, 2006 08:18 pm (UTC)
Riza didn't notice a tattoo that takes up most of her back? If that were true she wouldn't wear turtlenecks all the time. She'd wear a normal shirt and someone would ask what was on her back and they'd point it out then. There's no way unless in just appeared right then.
(no subject) - theydontloveyou on March 16th, 2006 08:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - theydontloveyou on March 16th, 2006 10:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 11:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brigitanastasia on March 17th, 2006 08:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 17th, 2006 04:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brigitanastasia on March 18th, 2006 01:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 18th, 2006 01:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brigitanastasia on March 19th, 2006 07:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 09:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - theydontloveyou on March 16th, 2006 11:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 17th, 2006 04:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sannask on March 16th, 2006 10:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 11:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - theydontloveyou on March 16th, 2006 11:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Imagination at it's finest: Hopedragontrap on March 16th, 2006 08:42 pm (UTC)
I know you are trying to bring in the idea of Riza being the actual sacrifice for the stone itself, you also need to take in account that she may only be one of many pieces that will be used (Hence more than one human sacrifice) in it's finally creation.

If you think back to the sins themselves, Envy is actually Hermaphrodite because he is both and neither (Meaning both the male and female aspect of things). Part 8 talked about the mixing to create the Hermaphrodite, and if you remember back to chapter 52/53 when Ed stumbles upon the meaning behind the creation of the Homunculus (taking a living human (or in the case of the one's not made from human flesh *Gluttony for example*, creation within the Father's body), and using them in a mixing of the Philosopher's Stone and a Human host), it also slightly eludes to Envy's origins (I'm pretty sure that Envy was not created from one sole human being that he is made of pieces from an entire nation combined within his body).

To say only one person is the center piece in all of this is like saying that Ed will single-handedly fix everything that is/has gone wrong in the manga thus far.

I do applaud you though for take the time to look all of this up, and in the end, only Arakawa knows the truth.
nintendocat: Busynintendocat on March 16th, 2006 09:49 pm (UTC)
Actually I agree more with being 'a' key to the stone more than 'the' Key. I think that she is needed for a part of Father's plans in some way and that Roy abilities are needed for the process.
(no subject) - takokinoko on March 16th, 2006 10:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 10:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 16th, 2006 10:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - takokinoko on March 17th, 2006 12:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 17th, 2006 04:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Terterrierlee on March 16th, 2006 09:02 pm (UTC)
I KNEW the cross had some significance!

Everyone was just focusing on the flame sigil D:
nintendocat: Busynintendocat on March 16th, 2006 09:46 pm (UTC)
Yep, my friend and I tried to point out everything in the tattoo and we noticed that part as well.
Renarena_starsong on March 17th, 2006 03:10 am (UTC)
I am officaily going to be thinking to hard to sleep tonight. *scared*
nintendocat: Trainnintendocat on March 17th, 2006 04:22 pm (UTC)
Yay, I've scared another one.
(no subject) - rena_starsong on March 17th, 2006 10:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 17th, 2006 11:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rena_starsong on March 18th, 2006 01:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
Treebenttheleaningelm on March 17th, 2006 03:55 am (UTC)
YAY! Thank you for finding all this information. To me, the tattoo looks like an alternate symbol for the PS(but then again, I see it in everything,).
If you look at it upside down, like I did, you get the symbol for perfection four times:
--once in the intertwined crowned snakes, symbolizing the royal hermaphrodite,
--once in the sun(sol perfected, the pottable gold),
--once in the inverted sulphur symbol(Roy's array) also shown here,
--and once in the cross w/ arms of equal length, the quinta essentia(although I have no idea why there are different number and patterns of dots on the arms).

Of course, since chaos is the opposite of perfection, you can look at it the way it is, and see perfection inverted, or the material world.
Luna may well be the twin serpents, as they are wingless(and so probably mercury), which are enveloping the sun and the salamander(Riza's power over Roy?)
And actually, you might well be right about the Father thing. I was rereading the old chapters, and came across the part where Riza was explaining to Winry about how she would keep holding a gun until a certain someone fulfilled his dreams. Not once did Roy's name crop up, and knowning Arakawa's deviousness, I started wondering who that "certain someone" really was. (Thanks! I now have someone to latch onto! :P)
*sorry about my really long and rabbling post*
nintendocat: Busynintendocat on March 17th, 2006 04:21 pm (UTC)
No I'm pretty sure she was talking about Roy there. The symbolism of her talking then Roy talking and back and forth implies that. Though I guess it is something to think about.
(no subject) - nintendocat on March 17th, 2006 04:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Me: duopoasehistoryblitz on March 17th, 2006 01:13 pm (UTC)
I think it's a really interesting idea. And I can see all the work you put behind it. Supremely badass. Kudos to you! :D