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05 December 2004 @ 10:00 am
*sigh* (on the Liza/Riza debate)  
Okay, this has been bothering me for SOME time and I'm just going to start it as a post because hell, I've had FANFIC REVIEWS (on the Pit, no less, but still) where people tell me I'm wrong for transliterating her name as "Liza" and not "Riza". And now people are getting on Funi's case for adopting it (although the Hakuro/Haruko thing - erm. That's a little off).

If I were translating FMA, I'd probably make her name Liza.

- Because the Japanese is リザ and can therefore be romanized EITHER as Riza OR Liza. Someone gave the "Rei" example in the last post: well, that's because Rei Ayanami is a Japanese name, whereas Liza Hawkeye is not.
- Because all the names in the series are obviously meant to be Western (with the exception of Izumi for whatever reason) and Liza is much more Western-looking/sounding than Riza.

Now, people may give the "official page/merchandise" excuse to me and whatnot, but I've learned from other shows that half the time the names aren't romanized correctly anyway (anyone who knows about Slayers knows what I'm talking about). Japanese-speakers usually aren't native English-speakers. They don't know what works best in our language. And Arakawa was obviously going for Western-style names. So until she answers a question at some con about what Hawkeye's first name is supposed to be, written in Roman letters on a piece of paper, the whole question is 100% up for interpretation and both spellings are acceptable.

Thank you. *off soapbox*

(Apologies for the whining, this has just been building up for some time now.)
final_destiny_ on December 5th, 2004 07:25 am (UTC)
I suppose I agree with that :D I was wondering about the difference, since I read Liza in the manga and Riza in pretty much everything else. ^^
Mizukorimizukori on December 5th, 2004 07:37 am (UTC)
The "ra" sounds in Japanese are basically a hybrid of "la" and "ra" anyway, if you pernounce them right. I see no problem with it.

They also did it to Slayers. Firia became Filia, for example. And Ameria/Amelia.
|<4ti3: havok ded [teruteruboozu]4ti3k4t35 on December 5th, 2004 10:53 am (UTC)
and little bits of 'da' and 'ba' just to confuse us stupid white people. ^_^ Sensei spent an entire class period playing with her tongue to show us the differences.
(no subject) - kaitou_marina on December 5th, 2004 11:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 4ti3k4t35 on December 5th, 2004 12:01 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kaitou_marina on December 5th, 2004 01:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 4ti3k4t35 on December 5th, 2004 01:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kaitou_marina on December 5th, 2004 03:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 4ti3k4t35 on December 5th, 2004 04:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
ex_saraswath377 on December 5th, 2004 07:46 am (UTC)
That's a matter of opinion as to whether it "sounds stupid" (actually it doesn't, I knew someone whose nickname was Liza once <3). Did you read my arguments? The point is that the Japanese romanization system says it's acceptable either way.
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - brainmuffin on December 5th, 2004 09:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - billypilgrim on December 5th, 2004 07:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
summerwolf on December 5th, 2004 08:22 am (UTC)
I don't mind the name Liza. It's just that if we're going to accept Arakawa's Winry, why argue over 'Riza'? (I think she wrote it somewhere at some point...manga artbook, IIRC....my memory may be going, though)

I'm a fan of Fire Emblem, which officially romanized Sigurd as Siglud *facepalm* but Arakawa has been pretty consistent with her English. And besides.......I like Riza. XD Same as you with Liza. So I'll be a retard and keep calling her Riza. To each his/her own. I write Riza, you write Liza, Funi writes Liza and Bones write Riza. Everyone's happy.
xiahou bieber: Buddy amigo! (Hamel)hezul on December 5th, 2004 10:44 am (UTC)
If you didn't bring up Fire Emblem, I was about to. XD
Vedana_fields on December 5th, 2004 08:32 am (UTC)
I don't mind Liza that much, but here http://www.fullmetalalchemist.com/characters.htm they say it's Riza. And it's the english site, not the japanese one...
RayeRayepiyocola on December 5th, 2004 08:33 am (UTC)
actually I was surprised when I saw it was Riza all over. My first thought was that it should have been Liza, but I just shrugged it off as one of those things since the L vs R debate will be going on forever.....
annamoo on December 5th, 2004 08:47 am (UTC)
ex_saraswath377 on December 5th, 2004 08:51 am (UTC)
That's not Arakawa, necessarily. That could have been the printers. And it maybe could have been her. Point is we don't know for sure.
(no subject) - annamoo on December 5th, 2004 09:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shinraisei on December 5th, 2004 09:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on December 6th, 2004 02:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rinnychan on December 5th, 2004 03:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
nyartal on December 5th, 2004 09:12 am (UTC)
Thank you. I've seen the "l/r" arguments so many times in various fandoms, and I just don't get why it's such a big deal to some fans. It's the same damn letter in Japanese, and it can get romanized either way, no matter what the fansubs and Japanese material say.
// USER ERROR .unsuburban on December 5th, 2004 02:22 pm (UTC)
yeah. imagine how the "One Piece" kids feel. Poor Zoro getting changed to Zollo...

but that might be because of compright issues in the US...carry on.
hork13bajir5 on December 5th, 2004 09:24 am (UTC)
I understand this, but, with your logic, you could translate many things anyway you want.

"Edowaado -> Edwerd
Aru -> All
Izumi -> Izmy

Just because those names are plastered as "Edward" "Al" and "Izumi" everywhere on Japanese products, that doesn't mean they are correct."

That's your logic.

The Japanese products reflect how Arakawa-sensei spells them.
And she must have some large extent of knowledge on the English language since she travels to Europe for new materials for the manga.

As thus, it's logical to keep what the creator of the series wants.

ex_saraswath377 on December 5th, 2004 09:33 am (UTC)
No, my logic is also based on common sense, which says that Edowaado is meant to be Edward because it's a common Western name and Izumi is Izumi (which I think may be spelled in kanji anyway, I don't have above one of the manga in Japanese so I couldn't tell you for sure) because for some reason. My logic says Liza is more Western than Riza, so that's what I'm going with, but I see the arguments for the other side.

Arakawa-sensei spells the names of her characters in Japanese. I have not once seen her handwriting spelling out anyone's name in Roman letters - only typeset for promos, which means anyone could have done them. The only thing we know for sure is how the characters' names are spelled in Japanese. I wouldn't say she knows English per se unless you've actually seen something to that effect. Assumptions aren't supported in real debate.

No, what I'm saying is that it's up for debate, and I'm not saying that anyone who says it's Riza is wrong, but that Liza is a more Western-sounding name, like Edward and Alphonse, et al.
(no subject) - hork13bajir5 on December 5th, 2004 09:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ex_saraswath377 on December 6th, 2004 01:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
don't mind me... - unmei_no_yume on December 7th, 2004 03:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kirchu on December 5th, 2004 12:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Nalavashinalavashi on December 5th, 2004 09:29 am (UTC)
I really hate when fic reviewers tell people they're writing a name wrong, when the spelling and name vary in the fandom itself, and everybody knows who you're talking about in the first place. Perhaps same people are new and don't realize that both are acceptable, but I think the majority of people just like to say it to feel as though they're schooling you on something.
ex_saraswath377 on December 5th, 2004 09:36 am (UTC)

I guess my real point is "Stop harrassing fanfic writers as to their romanization choices when you don't know the rules of Japanese in the first place and leave actual feedback on the story."
Zranazrana on December 5th, 2004 09:58 am (UTC)
I've seen the descrepancy of romanizing names in merchandise before.

Take Raiel from Violinist of Hameln. In the manga, his name is SPELL IN ENGLISH ON HIS HAT. I mean, it's ALWAYS there! Above a giant "R" in the middle. THe R is also in the anime (but not the whole name spelled out). ANd then, on a manga poster/pencil board (I forgot, I haven't looked at it in ages) on the bottom where it lists the character names near the copyright info, it says "Liel." I guess they thought his name was supposed to really be "lyre" if they wanted to keep the instrument theme the characters are supposed to have--but they didn't do that right. (but Raiel IS part of an instrument name, a "Piano Raiel" or some such--I guess they're those jack in a box like things that street musicians used to crank to give little monkey's music to dance too....)

Eek, I digressed. *has VoH on the brain*
xiahou bieber: なに? (Raiel)hezul on December 5th, 2004 10:46 am (UTC)
I used to think the lyre thing myself, until I poked around and did some research. I AM A BAD MUSICIAN FOR NOT KNOWING. ;______; *hangs head*

(Me + you = comments threads that keep fangirling over Hameln all over the FMA posts! XD)
(no subject) - zrana on December 5th, 2004 09:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - hezul on December 5th, 2004 09:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - zrana on December 5th, 2004 09:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - hezul on December 5th, 2004 10:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Red Power Ranger ソランジ: fandomredninjawinz on December 5th, 2004 10:42 am (UTC)
HAHAHAHA this is like the Inuyasha translations. I've seen people literally piss and moan over americans spelling Kouga as Koga or Kirara as Kilala.

Just leave it up to the authors. They have to approve the sites and the merch if their name is going to be on it. *I don't mean them personally but you get my drift*

If she wanted us to say Liza I'm pretty sure she would have wrote it out that way. To each his own. You say it the way you want but the official way to say it is Riza.
ex_saraswath377 on December 6th, 2004 01:25 pm (UTC)
Actually, the authors don't always approve everything. Sometimes they sign away the rights, thinking it'll take them too much time, and sometimes they don't have them in the first place - famously Naoko Takeuchi (Sailormoon mangaka) had a big fight with publisher Kodansha in the late 90s over that exact issue. She felt she didn't have enough control over what was deprived from her intellectual property (including the anime).
CphT, bitches.ladymetaka on December 5th, 2004 11:04 am (UTC)
For the Riza/Winry thing: It's easier to way "Winry" than "Winly", and sounds better too (to me at least). With Riza's name, it kinda works both ways; I would've been pissed had it been "Lisa", but considering that for certain words I usually either roll my r's or have it come out as kind of both l and r (in Japanese, anyway), it kinda does make sense. True, I will always think of her as Riza, but I'm not gonna tar and feather FUNi over it, at least, not until I see if they messed other stuff up.

Another question... do dub companies ever consult the original studio or creator regarding this stuff, or do they just go at it and creator opinion be damned?
Saya Aensland: Penguin of RAGE!saya_aensland on December 5th, 2004 11:05 am (UTC)
It's a name change. Get the fuck over it, ALL OF YOU. Sheesh.

Liza is a good name, fits the lip flaps, rolls off the tongue better than Riza and fits the European setting better.

So it's not the original Japanese spelling. Whine whine whine. Ever seen Digimon? Huh? Huh? Junpei to JP, Taichi to Tai, YAMATO TO MATT?!?!

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, people.
Feriawithout_reason on December 5th, 2004 11:43 am (UTC)
Don't mention Miyako to Yolei! Or Koushiou Izumi to Izzy Izumi..... XD;;;
(no subject) - without_reason on December 5th, 2004 11:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - saya_aensland on December 5th, 2004 11:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - adalove on December 5th, 2004 12:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Lokijade_sabre on December 5th, 2004 11:25 am (UTC)
Because the Japanese is リザ and can therefore be romanized EITHER as Riza OR Liza. Someone gave the "Rei" example in the last post: well, that's because Rei Ayanami is a Japanese name, whereas Liza Hawkeye is not.

That was me. XD

In my opinion, Liza doesn't sound any more westernized tha Riza. Liza is a lot closer to Lisa, but I was kind of hoping that they'd make the names slightly off to make it more unique (except for Roy XD)
Saya Aenslandsaya_aensland on December 5th, 2004 03:57 pm (UTC)
In my opinion, Liza doesn't sound any more westernized tha Riza.

Compare the amount of English-speaking people named Liza to the amount of English-speaking people named Riza.

No, seriously. Who the fuck names their child Riza? Have you ever met a person named Riza? Or even seen the name Riza outside FMA?
(no subject) - jade_sabre on December 5th, 2004 05:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - saya_aensland on December 5th, 2004 07:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jade_sabre on December 5th, 2004 07:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)